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Board » General Discussion » ranking issues

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Posted by
StuArt


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2008-11-15 22:03:54
2010-01-26 00:11:31 - ranking issues
Many SOLists are aiming for the ranking. They know, They hardly will win a race; but with a certain effort they can climb up pretty much in the ranking ladder. The problem of the current ranking: you are loosing your high points soon; so you have to sail the next race and the next one etc to keep your good position up.

One solution would be a modification of the ranking system: you are keeping your good results longer. Thats what IRL rankings do - at least them that I know.

I sailed IRL with following system:

The winner of every race gets 100 points (100% success).
Because more participants means more skill s needed to win a race, the number of competitors is part of the calculation.

e=number of participants who finished the race.
x= ranking of a boat in a race.
RP= race points

the calculation:

RP = 100 * ( ( e+1-x):e)

Example:

543 boats finished. Boat x finished #49. His race points: 100*((543+1-49)/543) = 91,16

performance of boat x: 91%.


The important point is:
a certain amount of good results counts over a long period of time, say 6 or even 12 month.

Example (the 5 best results should be in the ranking):

Boat x gained in his 5 best races in the last 6 month: 91, 77, 65, 55, 41, and 19 points. His ranking points are
(91+77+65+55+41+19)/5 = 56,4

That means: his overall performance is around 56%.

Boat y is a newbie with just 3 races. He gained 22,19 and 11 RPs. His ranking points are: (22+19+11)/5=10,4 -> 10.4%

decisions to make:

How many races should be in the calculations? more means increased frequency of races. I would suggest between 5 and 8.

How long can you carry your good results? my proposal at least 6 month.

regards

StuArt
Posted by
WIN


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2009-07-09 23:32:07
2010-01-27 13:35:41 - Re: ranking issues
I would like to back up StuArt point . Since a few month now the SOL activity has dramatically increased , with so many times two if not three races open at one time . The present ranking system is based on continous attendance and some guys who are really better than me are not even close to top ranking , as they cannot commit enough time to sol . Also , as StuArt points out , each result fades away after may be one to one and half month , resulting in too quick disappearence of good results , as well as bad . A new system should be sought , that takes care , with whicever formula , of the above two issues . I am sure that a couple of new formulas in the system should not be dramatic software implementation .
Let's say that it is time to be creative also in the ranking system , to keep hight the interest in SYC and shovel some ranking stress off the fun of the game ....
Ready to help with creativity of need be .
ciao ciao all ...;)
Posted by
Tempest


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2009-06-16 17:44:17
2010-01-27 20:52:11 - Re: ranking issues
Present ranking system is based on time attended to SOL. As an example for this my temporary 4th position due to christmas holiday's and not missing nightly weather updates.
Unfortunately now work gets again in the game's way and stronger sailors are returning.
I agree with Winston that ranking has not so much to do with (my) sailing quality's but mainly with the time spent to this game. Ok I may have a good understanding of meteo but i know virtually nothing about sailing tactics and i see a lot of SOLers doing cleverer things then myself.

I think that the proposal of stuart has potential but also has some minor points for newbie racers and for quick rank improvement

I would rather see a setup of a three / four ranking systems based on the present ranking system but divided in classes for different types of races.( however i believe this has been mentioned before)

overall ranking : all races
weekend : only short races during the weekend.
week race : races held during weekdays over shorter distances.
oceanraces : only races over more then a week

This way people with less time can still be ranked high for instance in the ocean race class were most time races are more based on tactics then steering.


As a last remark I am fine with the present ranking system you know for yourself if you have made mistakes or not
and if your ranking is a bit to high/low for your own performance. However it is stimulating to see your ranking rise.
Ranking has nothing to do with using software as i have used non. A good knowledge of meteo however helps a lot and some spare time.

regards

Kees (Tempest)
Posted by
WIN


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2009-07-09 23:32:07
2010-01-27 21:20:10 - Re: ranking issues
I think that Tempest slightly misunderstood my point ....I am saying that to be high in this ranking system you need good sailing qualities "AND" spotless continuity in the game .... Actually I have said that there are excellent solers who are not high because they cannot attend all races . In order to be high though you still need to have at least 10 active results "ALL" in top 20/30 , some of which better be in top 5 !!! ;) .... As an example : should one of us sail every other race , and win all the races he/she sails , he/ she would stand with thousands of points very very low in the syc ranking ......This is , I believe , what StuArt and I would like to see changed .....ciao ;)
Posted by
Incognito


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2008-12-06 13:43:52
2010-01-27 22:56:17 - Re: ranking issues
Hello everyone,

First, I think StuArt has pointed to a real and growing problem for many SOLers who are trying to play the SYC ranking.

This problem has arisen because of the scheduling policy of the race committee. To accomodate the various preferences of SOLers, the race committee is now scheduling, beside the longer races, two short races per week, one during during the work week and one during the week-end. As a result, the frequency of races has indeed increased substantially, perhaps almost doubled.

As StuArt pointed out, participating in the same percentage of races as before has thus become much more demanding. And the period of time covered by the SYC ranking has been effectively shortened as well.

I can see some merits in StuArt's ranking system. However, basically, I do not believe that it is really possible to devise a perfect ranking system. SOL's ranking system works well enough as far as I am concerned. I prefer the SOL gods to put development time (which is in short supply) in other improvements.

However, it is I believe relatively easy to change the two main parameters of the SYC ranking, namely the total number of races and the number of best races taken into account.

My suggestion would be to calculate the ranking over the 10 best races out of the last 20. Thus a reduction of the participation rate and a lengthening of the effective period covered. We could test out these new parameters for a while and tweak them again later in function of the feedback.

Tempest is also suggesting to introduce a number of sub-rankings. I fully agree with that. In fact, the race committee has already made exactly this request (SYC ranking, ocean races, week races, week-end races, and also all short races). It is in the pipeline.

Regards,

Francois
Posted by
StuArt


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2010-01-28 01:31:48 - Re: ranking issues
Thanks Winston, Tempest and Inco for the feedback. I see its understood, what is needed.

The 3 different rankings are lowering the pressure.
Francois' proposal for a simple change sounds good to me. But I am not glad with the numbers he thought of.
We had 2,1 races a week since Novemver, so after 10 weeks my good results would be dropped. Thats just slightly better than today's version. I think we need a substantially longer period of wealthy results; as I proposed: at least 6 month. If the good sailors are not forced to sail every race to hold their position newcomers would have more opportunities to climb the ladder.

regards

Berth


--- Last Edited by StuArt at 2010-01-28 01:39:15 ---
Posted by
Journey


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2008-12-29 04:51:08
2010-01-28 05:24:22 - Re: ranking issues
I think this thread is on the right track. In addition to a more forgiving proportion than our current 10/15, the key improvement would be the addition of more subcategories.

But why stop at the type or time of race categories. I would love to see country/region rankings and maybe a separate "newbie" division.

Having many rankings is a great way to keep interest high. And once you have the raw data, it's easy to create then. Why limit ourselves to one, or even the currently proposed four, rankings. The more the merrier!
Posted by
Incognito


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2008-12-06 13:43:52
2010-01-28 13:28:42 - Re: ranking issues
Hello SuArt, Bob,

I like to see the results of each individual race have some impact on my overall SYC ranking. That will barely be the case if the rankings cover a period of about 6 months. Two to three months sound about right to me.

Given the average of about 10 races per month, two months correspond to about 20 races, three months to about 30 races. Keeking the participation rate at 50%, the SYC ranking could then be based on anything between 10 best races out of the last 20, and 15 best races out of the last 30.

Bob, other type of rankings are possible of course. But let's first wait for the implementation of what has already been asked for.

Regards,

Francois
Posted by
Tempest


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2009-06-16 17:44:17
2010-01-28 20:37:47 - Re: ranking issues
Is there a possibility we use the raw data like in stenum's list for various rankings ?

http://www.stenum.se/sailonline/

Various rankings may be kept with some delay without putting to much additional ballast on SOL server. However i am certainly no specialist in these matters.

Regards
Kees
Posted by
StuArt


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2008-11-15 22:03:54
2010-01-28 22:21:16 - Re: ranking issues
Hi,

I agree, Bob and Tempest. Don't know how to implement this either; but it cannot be rocket sience; at least wiz has it on stenum.se - we could have it seperately on a different server, indeed.

@ Inco: I am still not convinced, that it would make a difference to what we have. If you sail a race that is not counting to your ranking you still have your ranking in that race to see your standing.
Another point: In the current system I get a penalty, when I don't start. We should consider the fact, that many users (in the VOR leg 3: 6.2%) just logging in and deciding not to start. No matter why not - they are getting the full penalty. We should change that. Probably there is a possibillity for Jakob to transmit who's not touching the boat until closing of the race.
The other thing: In the current ranking you are transporting bad points, negative values. In a different ranking system like I descibed you are getting positive points; points you really faught for. The races, where others were much better, don't count. I like it more to get a reward than a penalty.

my2€cent

Berth

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