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Board » General Discussion » Sailors with routers

Posted by Husse Posts 10 Registered at 2010-11-21 15:27:24	2014-11-06 22:59:00 - Re: Sailors with routers
	Kroppyer Thanks for your thought's, but we don't have to make it so difficult. We can do it as we allways done it, race to the finnish. But we can have two classes, R for Routers, L for Livesailors. The rules for the definitions between L &R can be discussed, the final decision should bee taken by the board. We can race to the finnish together but with the differnce that R & L are presented in two different podiums, one in R & one in L. We don't need too make it so difficult, we all like to sail and race. //Husse Husse
Posted by Dingo Posts 93 Registered at 2013-03-09 04:23:58	2014-11-07 06:56:59 - Re: Sailors with routers
	I think it would be interesting if an expert in SOTP sailing could explain in detail the techniques used in both long term and short term course planning, and then we could all understand a little more what the value of those podium positions for SOTPers would involve. I haven't seen much discussion of it yet. It is also worth noting that there cost is no impediment to acquiring a router. There are more free routers available than there are commercial ones, and a few of the free ones do a very good job. Most only take an hour or two to understand their use. It takes a few more hours to also understand when not to use them. Please also understand I take nothing away from those who sail for fun or indeed the mental challenge of SOTP course reckoning. I'm just not seeing the value in a class for that activity. On the other I do admire all those who are not particularly IT gifted who have taken on the challenge of learning how to use a router, or how to access and understand pilot charts, or who have been reading about long range weather forecasting in an effort to increase their pleasure and performance in SOL. Whilst they might not be on the podium much or even at all, they've learnt a lot and have moved from positions in the top 100-200 into positions in the top twenties and thirties. I think that is to be admired, even if it isn't rewarded with a podium medal or certificate. --- Last Edited by Dingo at 2014-11-07 08:40:05 --- --- Last Edited by Dingo at 2014-11-07 08:44:27 --- --- Last Edited by Dingo at 2014-11-07 10:40:02 ---
Posted by Dana1 Posts 23 Registered at 2012-09-26 17:33:43	2014-11-07 16:30:54 - Re: Sailors with routers
	I think Husse pointed out some valid points but it does seem a little bit artificial to me. Like some pointed out a router is a tool to speed up calculations that could be done in, lets say Excel, or pen and paper. Should there then also be different results for people who spend 2 hours or more on SOL per day, and those who spend less energy? We could also have a separate class for those that do not even use the WX slider, except to see the pretty animation of the wind changes over time. A PSS (Point and Shoot Sailor) podium. Sarcasm here. We only have a few hundred active sailors. Most of the shorter races are raced without routers anyway. This should only be considered for Ocean races. In my opinion not even there.
Posted by kroppyer Posts 345 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2014-11-07 17:24:46 - Re: Sailors with routers
	In theory you can do everything with spreadsheets that a router can. Are all spreadsheets allowed in the 'L' group? Or only those with some restrictions? Let's forget about enforcing the rules for a moment. We're racing here, we are competitive. Part of that is finding the best approach within the rules. You can't do that when the rules are not clear. A rule "You may only use this list of software <list>" is clear. "You may not route" is not clear. _____ What I find most important to get you to understand about my previous proposal: It leaves sol as is. Nothing changes. But, it adds an option for anyone to start groups, each with it's own ranking, and own set of rules. If you think "You may not route" is clear enough, get a group of solers together that agree to stick to that rule, and you have a group. You can also start a group only for friends. How does that sound? Hopefully a bit less complicated and for some a bit more familiar.
Posted by Husse Posts 10 Registered at 2010-11-21 15:27:24	2014-11-07 20:45:30 - Re: Sailors with routers
	I think you all have great idea's and good points. But i think you all are missing my point, i maybe wasn't clear enough about that. I want to attract new SOL'ers, or at least don't loose more SOL'ers. I don't have anything against routers, excel-sheets or whatever anyone uses to find the best way to the endpoint. The point is that we are getting fewer and fewer. We need to do some Changes to attract new SOL'ers, everything has to change sometime to develope. I think new SOL'ers quit when they don't have a chance against the "elite" who all probably uses routers. Maybe it should be in the manual, as Dingo so wisely says, nobody has explained how to use a router. Maybe even SOL should have their own downloadable router to SOL'ers to use, with a manual to it. This problem isn't new to SOL, during 2012 people stoped using SOL, as it is probably today. starting to get over it It's not about router or no router, it's about making SOL attractive and attracting new members who like too sail in the virtual live as well as i irl. __________ edited to make a link out of a url to prevent column overlap --- Last Edited by RainbowChaser at 2014-12-22 22:30:00 --- Husse
Posted by Husse Posts 10 Registered at 2010-11-21 15:27:24	2014-11-07 20:47:25 - Re: Sailors with routers
	We all can make SOL better, if we put some effort into it. Husse
Posted by Mega30 Posts 6 Registered at 2008-03-07 07:55:54	2014-11-07 21:16:28 - Re: Sailors with routers
	The line between to calculate future changes, or just looking at predictor, wind arrows or present isochrones should divide the SOLers so easily that it should not be hard to define two classes. ???
Posted by kroppyer Posts 345 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2014-11-07 22:00:43 - Re: Sailors with routers
	I don't think we (you) want two classes, I think you want a non-router sub class. So, adding a non-router ranking (in which only people are ranked who agree not to use a router) would be sufficient? Step 2 is clearly defining what is routing and what is not. I might be the only one with problems here. Hypothetically, if your predictor line would take into account your DCs. So not a twa/cc predictor line, but one that follows your DCs. And let's say that line doesn't extend for 6h, but for 6 days. Let's say it draws small parts of the polar every 15 minutes (so that it starts to look like isochrones). Then we add an option so that you can simulate a list of DCs without actually entering them as actual DCs yet. And to make it a bit more userfriendly it can show multiple of those simulated predictor lines at once, given different sets of DCs. As a handy tool we can automatically flag the the predictor lines/sets of DCs/routes that are "behind" (slower than) other predictor lines. If needed, we can remove all flagged (slow) routes, leaving only the faster ones. Let's add an option to create about 10 routes from an existing route, those 10 routes follow the existing route and diverge 15 minutes after the last DC in 10 slightly different headings. And finally, let's add an option to automatically do such "route splitting" for every existing route, followed by flagging and removing slow routes until we reach the end of our Wx. At what point did this predictor line become a router? That's why I would advise to use a list of allowed software rather than "Don't use a router". ___ In the end, you don't care about what should be called routing and what not, you just want a group of people that use similar tools as you do, and have a little competition within that group. At least, that's what I want. --- Last Edited by kroppyer at 2014-11-07 22:04:48 ---
Posted by Mega30 Posts 6 Registered at 2008-03-07 07:55:54	2014-11-07 22:31:15 - Re: Sailors with routers
	Kroppyer: Very good, thank you! I have to read your comment some more times to understand it fully. But I like your approach to the subject, and your brilliant thinking about this eternal problem.
Posted by Alan (iomkiwi) Posts 39 Registered at 2011-11-02 07:13:43	2014-11-08 09:19:30 - Re: Sailors with routers
	From a few comments I have seen in chat, SOL used to have races where you could choose different classes of yacht for the same race? If the server is still set up to handle this can the system just be modified so you pick your category as you register? Maybe put in other categories for team boats etc as well if possible? can each category just be assigned a different boat colour?

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