Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Board » General Discussion » Sailors with routers

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next

Posted by
outlaw


Users avatar

Posts
33
Registered at
2012-06-01 13:37:55
2014-11-09 12:02:38 - Re: Sailors with routers
I thought about this long and hard, and I'm going to step on people's toes anyway with an honest answer, so be warned...
1. It is safe to assume that the consistent winners are good in every phase of the game, including the skill to come up with very good SOTP routes. In that regard the router debates are always somewhat insulting.
2. It's a given that routers offer a competitve advantage, that said the real gain is in time spent. Which you want to minimize in a multi week race. The difference between good SOTP and true optimum route is bound to be trumped by wx "luck" by orders of magnitude.
3. When I started in SOL my goal wasn't winning but to come up with sensible routes. It seems to me that people who whine about routers often fail that standard.
4. While some good info is out there, I'm not aware of any good and comprehensive routing tutorial. This should be fixed.
5. The need to do 5 million little course changes per race is a problem. Allowing the server to take VMC commands could be a way to level the playing field, although I'm ambivalent on the matter.
6. People have in the past suggested to reward online time in some form. (in the form of micro randomised wx or whatever). A horrible idea that would drive me to either look at automation or quit SOL altogether.
7. IMO the powers that be need to have a hard look at race design. I think that much of the supposed SOTP friendly design is not working. Ocean races are the most popular, one should put more emphasis on medium length events along the lines of Sail Fiji or S2H. Easier start/finish layouts would be nice too.

Lastly am I the only one who thinks the F1 comparision is silly? Maybe the series has changed since I last watched, for the worse I'm sure. Back when 2 drivers would sweep all races in a given season. Good times.
Posted by
kroppyer


Users avatar

Posts
347
Registered at
2010-02-05 15:25:55
2014-11-09 12:38:22 - Re: Sailors with routers
Re outlaw's #4:

QtVLM runs on windows, linux and mac. Installation on Windows ad Mac should be quite straighforward. I plan to make a little guide on installation under linux (rpm based, already guides for deb based).

Here is my "introduction to QtVLM". Other tutorials can be found here. I want to make another solfans post for some slightly more advanced options.

QtVLM is completely free (opensource, even).

If there's any reason why the argument "I cannot route" is still valid, let me know.
_____
That leaves the perfectly fine "I don't want to route". For those people:
If you've never tried it. Try it for one or two races (ocean races). It'll teach you a lot, even SOTP skills. It will also teach you that it's not a simple "click the button and get an optimal route", it leaves a lot to meteorology etc. As dingo says "Most routers only take an hour or two to understand their use. It takes a few more hours to also understand when not to use them.".
**I'm not trying to get you into routing, I'm telling you to examine what routing really is**

Then finally, as I said before, I would really love to have a group+ranking (or more) with people who've agreed to use no other software than on a given list. I really understand (I think I do) the experience of SOTP sailing, and it certainly would be nice to see who's sailing SOTP with you.

--- Last Edited by kroppyer at 2014-11-09 12:40:13 ---
Posted by
ita10267


Users avatar

Posts
88
Registered at
2008-12-29 10:33:09
2014-11-09 12:51:16 - Re: Sailors with routers
Outlaw said it all. I agree with his points from first to last. Especially #1.
Again, for SOL-racing, any freeware routing software is OK (BWR, QtVLM etc). With the help of brainaid gribs/polars anyone can start with the same gear. Will everyone finish at the same time. NO.
Posted by
Dana1


Users avatar

Posts
23
Registered at
2012-09-26 17:33:43
2014-11-09 21:19:50 - Re: Sailors with routers
It is true that this router bashing is not fair. I believe that most sailors who do use a router also spend more time on the game.

It takes me at least 15 or 20 minutes at each wx to do routing calculations. On top of that I usually spend at least a few hours (often more) each day monitoring the situation and hand steering my little boat.

So if there should be a division between boats it should not be between router/non-router user. But rather between the time spend on the game. And that would not work.

This kind of action will not increase the number of players in SOL. In the inferior VR platform over 6000 players have already finished the first leg of the VOR race. Some of them SOTP, thousands of them are router users.
Posted by
buncha


Users avatar

Posts
2
Registered at
2013-01-25 22:09:35
2014-11-09 22:05:33 - Re: Sailors with routers
I've been SOL'ing for a few years as a SOTP (obvious) in ocean events that allow me to work (part time), sail, play golf and sleep well. From race results and continuous encounters I get to know those boats that are skippered by people who would live a similarly time consuming lifestyle to myself. I would not like to use a router because my expectation of me would be that of becoming one of the "bee hive" of boats that are expected to produce the winner.
I enjoy my occasional use of SOL racing against those boats I happily call 2nd division.
cheers BUNCHA
Posted by
HappyHour


Users avatar

Posts
27
Registered at
2009-01-08 06:48:51
2014-11-10 03:23:47 - Re: Sailors with routers
We need some more groups, not just routers and non routers ;) Whats about guys like me, who start a race without a router but bring in a router in the middle of the game and end the race without any router? Is it allowed to start in the nonrouter group if i run a router but ignore its output? Who will control that? I just wonder that most of the critics about routers came from folks that never used a router. Do you really think you can start an ocean race with your router, make your DC´s and thats it. After your 3 week vacation you will in the top ten? Thats a nice dream! Test the routers and you will change your mind that routers gives you an automatic top ranking. BTW, even in real sailing its a good idea to use uptodate tools.
Posted by
dtayls


Users avatar

Posts
30
Registered at
2014-06-23 03:34:16
2014-11-10 05:17:56 - Re: Sailors with routers
To me, yacht racing is a little like golf. In golf we agree to be bound by the rules as we do when we race on the water (RRS #2 Fair Sailing).

I think we need to create two or three categories and people need to check the appropriate box at the beginning of the race and confirm it at the end ... a post-race declaration that we have sailed by the rules of the race.

Some possibilities include:

NR/SOTP - No Routing (nothing beyond the SOL client)
LR - Limited Routing (provided by SOL'ers)
FR - Free Router(s)
CR - Commercial Router (Expedition, etc)
AP - Full Auto-Pilot
X - eXperimental

Your thoughts?
Posted by
hmm


Users avatar

Posts
118
Registered at
2011-11-03 13:35:22
2014-11-10 06:16:07 - Re: Sailors with routers
I don't use a router myself, usually my results reflect quite well how much time I am willing or can dedicate to the race.

I think what outlaw wrote is pretty much my thoughts about the subject. The router is just a calculator which reduces the time needed.

Some questions in my mind about this which should be decided if we choose to do this:
- How should the possible different categories be visible?
- Should you be able to change category during a race (obviously not from router to non-router)
- Who is volunteering to do the changes?
Posted by
ita10267


Users avatar

Posts
88
Registered at
2008-12-29 10:33:09
2014-11-10 07:05:52 - Re: Sailors with routers
Given the wx uncertainties (ofter 5-7 days every wx forecast becomes crap) routing in ocean races is only useful to quickly understand the wx pattern. On the other hand, between two WP whose distance is below 6hrs, a router can give you the perfect solution. But in these cases a lot of manual steering is also involved making the router pretty useless.

Now, if you don't want to use it, to it's like refusing 3DL sails on a TP52. Here (not speaking about short races) we test our planning skills and to do that, as IRL, many use software tools. Want to make a class ranking? Put an R close to my boat name. Will I be sure that all the fellows in the NR class will never look at software tools? No. Is there a way to enforce this? No. Will this attract new solers? No.

I am sorry but I really think we should put our limited time into other improvements:

- Better polar for new boats (the one used in SWR Leg 1 demands for improvement).
- Better wx data (we should use always max resolution NOAA, in the client we should have the setting to download a lower resolution set, if bandwidth is an issue).
- Better connections with important IRL races in our countries (this ATTRACTS new SOLers).
- Mobile client for Iphone (the one for Android is a beauty, now it's the apples' turn)
- And a lot more.
Posted by
Jepsom


Users avatar

Posts
30
Registered at
2008-01-28 20:27:15
2014-11-10 08:20:36 - Re: Sailors with routers
I, who was an opponent of the router before, have realized that it´s not worth anything to begin putting too much boundaries and putting everybody in the same box. You just have to accept that there will be different opportunities out there, just like that we have more or less time to spend on this. I also believe that those who sail with router runs a small risk of being wrong if they rely on the router too much. They must, after all, to think a little longer than 6 hours, just like the rest of us.

Besides ... it is possible to beat them ...;-)

/Jepsom

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

Brisbane to Keppel Tropical Yacht Race 2025


When the winter weather turns cool in southern Australia sailors head up to the warmer waters of The Great Barrier Reef and the big winter regattas at Hamilton Island, Airlie Beach and Magnetic Island. But the race isn’t ‘on’ this year; nevertheless, Sailonline is inviting all racers from RQYS and beyond to race the 343 nm for the fun, this time in our SOTO 40. It might be winter downunder but do put on your shorts and t-shirts before you sit down behind your devices to get into the spirit of it all!
Race #1921
INFOby brainaid.de
SOTO 40 Particulars
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC
Race starts: Jun 19th 01:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Pantaenius Shetland Race 2025 - Leg 1

Prepare your sails and brace for exhilaration—it's time once again to embark on the thrilling journey from Norway's stunning outer Korsfjorden to the ruggedly beautiful Shetland Isles! Welcome to the first electrifying leg of Sailonline's celebrated two-race Shetland Series. Spanning nearly 190 nautical miles, this year's challenge features the Salona 39, masterfully designed in collaboration with Maurizio Cossutti. Sailonline proudly partners with this iconic race, bringing sailors from around the globe together to test their strategic prowess and seamanship. Whether you're a seasoned veteran or setting out on your first virtual adventure with us, get ready for an unforgettable race filled with intense competition, breathtaking scenery, and the sheer joy of sailing. The North Sea awaits—let the adventure begin!
Race #1922
INFO by brainaid.de
Salona 39 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
SHE - SYC
Race starts: Jun 18th 11:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Haugesund to Reykjavik 2025


In late April 2016 Draken Harald Hårfagre, the worlds largest viking ship built in modern times, left her home port in Haugesund, Norway and sailed off for a challenging voyage across the North Atlantic Ocean.
The aim was to explore and relive one of the most mythological sea voyages – the first transatlantic crossing, and the Viking discovery of the New World, more than a thousand years ago. History tells us about the Viking explorer, Leif Eriksson, who discovered America over 500 years before Christopher Columbus. The expedition was all about exploring the world, just like the Vikings did.
Sailonline is racing the 1000 nm first leg, from Haugesund, Norway, to Reykjavik, Iceland in our Farr 400. Let us sail in the wake of history on this epic adventure!
Race #1913
INFO from brainaid.de
Farr 400 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
ARQ2 - ARCH - SUPSOL – SYC
Race starts: Jun 16th 17:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Africa by Sea - Swakopmund to Maputo 2025


Time again to continue our exploration of Africa by Sea, which now takes us around the tip of the continent at Cape Agulhas and up the coast of South Africa to Mozambique’s marvellous Maputo, where we should find good anchorage in the bend of the Rio Espirito Santo (Umbuluzi) once we’ve cleared the 60m high Maputo - Katembe suspension bridge. It’s 1900nm and we’ll be glad to be sailing our comfortable and sturdy Xp-55, as we will certainly experience more headwinds!
Race #1857
INFOby brainaid.de
Xp-55 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - ABC
Race starts: Jun 11th 17:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Marquesas to Young Island 2025

The adventure continues as we launch this fourth leg of the RWW series, racing from Marquesas to Young Island in the Balleny Islands, a group of islands in the Southern Ocean only 62 nm from Antarctica. Get ready for a chilling new challenge as we set sail on the sixth leg of the 2025 Ocean Championship Series! A 4100nm journey of endurance, strategy, and pure sailing excitement. This leg will be pursued aboard the race machine RP66, pushing sailors to their limits. Do you have what it takes to conquer the Southern Ocean? Join us and put your skills to the ultimate test!
PRIZE: SMPF
Race #1909
INFO by brainaid.de
Raichel/Pugh 66 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ2 - RWW - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
June 21 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Jun 02nd 11:00 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

  1. Sailonline Yacht Club Member WRmirekd
  2. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CriticalHippo
  3. Sailonline Yacht Club Member KaSToR
  4. Sailonline Yacht Club Member FreyjaUSA
  5. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Patrick70119
  6. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Kipper1258
  7. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rafa
  8. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rumskib
  9. Sailonline Yacht Club Member bonknhoot
  10. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Smo

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client