Login
Support Sailonline
If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!
Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!
Page: First Previous 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Posted by Rod |
|
I hate to play the ignorant here, but at the level of my SOLing, I do not particularly care about the distance lost by tacking or gybing--they are inevitable!!!
What I need is a quick 'graphical' method of determining the perf loss I will suffer when I round a mark that I am approaching. I want to know what perf loss I will have--and if it is greater than 7% (which will reduce my perf below 93%)---what angle do I need to turn to make the first part of a two-part turn give me a perf loss of slightly less than 7%? I can then complete my turn without incurring further perf loss. This works directly as stated, only for gybes...??? You state that, when tacking, the perf loss is equal to half of the new boat speed. This is not helpful, as I do not know what my new boat speed will be until I know the perf loss. (This is a circular argument!) What I need to know as I approach a position or a mark, at which I will tack, is a way to determine quickly if my perf loss will be more than the 7% level, and if it is, to what angle should I make the first part of my tack, so that I may complete the rest of the tack with no further increase in loss. I realise, that whatever my total perf loss from my tack, I will pay the penalty of 'distance and time lost'--there is nothing I can do about that!!! --- Last Edited by Rod at 2016-11-24 20:03:36 --- --- Last Edited by Rod at 2016-11-24 20:04:25 --- If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy. |
|
Posted by kroppyer ![]() |
|
The boatspeed that is used to calculate the performance loss after a change of tack is the boatspeed on the new course with 100% performance (this might not be clear from the document).
You want to know how much you loose when you have a choice. For example "gybe directly" vs "gybe with an extra command", or "tack every 2 minutes along the shoreline" vs "tack every 30 seconds along the shoreline". Distance lost or time lost can help with a rough estimate of how much you gain/loose with either option. The more exact option is to look at the average VMC during the manoeuvre (as long as the time interval are the same). To use this, you need to fully understand sailing with VMC, as outlaw explains in his solfans posts. The main purpose of having performance loss is to make skippers decide between things like "tack every 2 minutes along the shoreline" vs "tack every 30 seconds along the shoreline" and choose the realistic option because it's fastest. We've seen that the current performance model fails in this regard when the boats are on the extreme ends of the scale (AC72, DN, Square Rigger). The current performance model has as a (in my opinion, unwanted) side-effect that the way we tack/gybe our boats can have a large influence on performance loss. Anyway, I hope I cleared up the circular reasoning (which can actually be solved with some math, but why bother, it's not necessary anyway) and I hope you understand (to the extend you want to) the importance of "distance lost" and/or other metrics to quantify the losses the are the result of particular manoeuvres. --- Last Edited by kroppyer at 2016-11-26 01:00:26 --- |
|
Posted by Rod |
|
I am starting to follow your reasoning about the Perf loss while tacking or gybing. However, at this point in my practice, you are one step ahead of me still. So far, I am still at the stage of trying to keep my perf loss to a minimum. At lower boat speeds most of these manoevers can be carried out while still keeping the loss to 7% or less. It is only at higher speeds that a course change can result in a loss greater than 7%. My concern then becomes my efforts to reduce this loss to as close to 7% as possible by tacking or gybing in a double action, so that the second part of the action will result in no further increase in loss.
I have not yet reached the degree of sophistication where I start to worry about a choice of how much I am able to minimise the losses in a series of tacks or gybes in quick succession. I will attempt to extend my thinking to such operations as multiple tacks along a shoreline (which I have observed being done without clearly understanding "why"). --- Last Edited by Rod at 2016-11-25 21:56:32 --- If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy. |
|
Posted by kroppyer ![]() |
|
A series of tacks (along a shoreline) is not to minimise performance loss.
In a right shift, you are best of being the rightmost boat (within the laylines*). Sometimes a landmass is in the way of being the rightmost boat and you have to tack to keep clear. Question is, how long do you keep on sailing in the wrong direction before tacking back to the right? For this you need to know two things: - how much am I losing by sailing in the wrong direction? - how much am I losing by tacking? The second one requires an understanding of the performance loss model, even when you are in no way trying to "cheat" the model with fancy manoeuvres/tricks. One simple tactic: when your performance is enough below 93% (after beaching for example), you don't lose anything with two additional tacks to bring you more to the right: you are free to tack very quickly along the shoreline until your performance is over 93% again. The tricky thing here is to avoid another bbq, and you're usually not wining much anyway. (* typically just outside the laylines actually, but that's besides the point here) |
|
Posted by Schlumpi ![]() |
|
Kroppyer (and others). This is a very important thread, about a topic often poorly understood by newbies - I still consider myself one of them.
Is there any timeline being proposed for the changes to PL (and recovery)? It does seem well overdue. I will not add my 2c to the "way to change" argument. A thought I would like to add is to add some light info to the Manual in Section 1.9 - a brief explanation of what happens and how to minimise it. Perhaps a link to a page with more info. The piece Yohann wrote in his post in this thread on 2016-05-06 16:01:13 is perhaps the most elegant I have come across. A quick "Thank you" to all in the SOL community who work so hard to maintain and improve this simulator ![]() |
|
Posted by PresentTense ![]() |
|
I'm new to SOL and quite frankly, this thread makes me not want to be involved. Along with another aspect that I believe exists, which is account sharing?
I understand the idea of performance being lost through a tack or gybe, but does it really make a difference to who wins or loses a real ocean race? The fact that it is being used in the way described in this thread makes me think the whole game is broken. IMO it would be better to have no Performance Loss at all than to have people gaining a competitive advantage from abusing it. And the answer is "well, anyone can work it out and use it for themselves, so that means its okay..." No, it's not. It's Cheating. |
|
Posted by kroppyer ![]() |
|
Hi PresentTense,
Welcome to sailonline! You have very quickly discovered what I think is the worst aspect of sailonline. Performance loss usually does not really play a role in race on sailonline, but some of the shorter races (sprints/timed races), or those with special circumstances (sailing with tallships, weather that gives a large advantage to hugging the coast, etc.) sometimes bring out the worst of the current implementation of performance loss. In those cases people with a full understanding of how performance loss works in sailonline can leverage their knowledge to gain an advantage over the competition. Of course people with more knowledge and experience should have an advantage over the competition, but this type of knowledge has nothing to do with sailing, so it shouldn't give an advantage. I think everyone would agree. We need to change this. So yes, for most of the races (esp. the ocean races) it doesn't really make a different whether or not we have performance loss. But by disabling it, there will be a small number of cases where the fastest route includes tacking/gybing every 10 seconds. Performance loss takes solves almost all of this small number of cases, but as a side effect introduces a smaller number of cases where performance loss itself has an undesirable effect on racing. I think the current performance loss is better than no performance loss, but it could definitely do with some improvement. I'm convinced we can make performance loss better, meaning: it prevents tacking/gybing every 10 seconds in all cases and it has less side effects. I really hope the current performance loss implementation doesn't affect your enjoyment of the game/simulation. In normal ocean racing is only very rarely that people with a full understanding of performance loss can use it to their advantage (to gain 10 or 20 seconds). |
Page: First Previous 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Please login to post a reply.Races
Next Race: 00d 00h 00m
Current Races:
Cairns to Darwin 2023
This race was originally Leg 7 of the A3 series - AGage's Around Australia, which SOL dedicated to AGage's memory. This time it is the ninth race of the All-Round Championship 2023 Series - 1405nm in Orange 125’ Catamaran from Cairns, the hub of Australia's tropical holiday zone, to Darwin, the frontier with Asia.
Race #1724
INFO by brainaid.de
Orange 125’ PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
ARQ3 - ARCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Sep 21st 05:00
Registration Open!
Carib Rum Run 2023

Welcome to the Caribbean and Sailonline's annual Pirate race, running with International Talk Like a Pirate Day on 19 September! This is a 1759nm slalom through the rum islands of the Caribbean in our glorious Falkun superyachts! Our mission is to collect barrels from the region's distilleries and carry them to the rum-parched beaches of Cancun, Mexico. Join SYC before race end and ye befuddled scallywags can disguise yer boat for this race only with a pirate name!
Race #1698
INFO from brainaid.de
Falkun PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC
Race starts: Sep 16th 15:00 Registration Closed
GO TO RACE
Sinbad Braves the Bay of Bengal 2023
“Sinbad, you sorry sailor, why have you not told me of this great sea, this giant bay, stretching hundreds of thousands of qasbah east of Al-Hindi to fabled lands where tea and rice and rubber is abundant?” and Sinbad replied “Ahh, umm, shall I go have a look. May I take the Judel Vrolijk 62 again, it’s going to be a long voyage, perhaps a million and one half qasbah (c 3000nm)? I’ll start in Chittagong and follow the coast to the southern tip of the Hindus’ land, round Serendip, head east into the vastness of the seas, and if I’m lucky (no pun intended, oh Mighty One) I shall find land again and then head north and see where I end up”. “Fair winds, Sinbad”, said the Sultan.
Race #1641
INFOby brainaid.de
Judel Vrolijk 62 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - SVS
Race starts: Sep 13th 08:00
Registration Closed
Maryland to Alaska 2023
Welcome to this September edition of 2023 OCCH. This route was first sailed in 2020. At the time it was inspired by Matt Rutherford's single-handed Red Dot Expedition around the Americas in 2012, SOLer Renegade proposing a half-around from Maryland over the North into the Pacific and back through the Panama Canal, in 5 legs, 5 years later. Leg 2 across the North West Passage proved to be particularly challenging and so to create a proper Ocean Race, SRC combined Leg 2 with Leg 1 to give you a race of at least 4000nm from Maryland to Alaska, now to be sailed in our magnificent Archer 78.
PRIZE: SMPF
Race #1719
INFOby brainaid.de
Archer 78 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
OCQ3 - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Sunday,
October 1 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Sep 01st 14:00
Registration Closed
SYC Ranking
Series
- SYC ranking
- 2023 TS
- 2023 TRQ4
- 2023 TRQ3
- 2023 TRQ2
- 2023 TRQ1
- 2023 TRCH
- 2023 SVS
- 2023 SUPerSOLer
- 2023 SSANZ
- 2023 SPRQ4
- 2023 SPRQ3
- 2023 SPRQ2
- 2023 SPRQ1
- 2023 SPRCH
- 2023 SHE
- 2023 RTW
- 2023 RNI
- 2023 PIC
- 2023 OCQ4
- 2023 OCQ3
- 2023 OCQ2
- 2023 OCQ1
- 2023 OCCH
- 2023 LOOR
- 2023 DN
- 2023 ARQ4
- 2023 ARQ3
- 2023 ARQ2
- 2023 ARQ1
- 2023 ARCH
- 2022 TRQ4
- 2022 TRQ3
- 2022 TRQ2
- 2022 TRQ1
- 2022 TRCH
- 2022 TD
- 2022 Tall Ships
- 2022 SUPerSOLer
- 2022 SSANZ
- 2022 SSA
- 2022 SPRQ4
- 2022 SPRQ3
- 2022 SPRQ2
- 2022 SPRQ1
- 2022 SPRCH
- 2022 SHE
- 2022 OCQ4
- 2022 OCQ3
- 2022 OCQ2
- 2022 OCQ1
- 2022 OCCH
- 2022 NTR
- 2022 LOOR
- 2022 CTR
- 2022 ARQ4
- 2022 ARQ3
- 2022 ARQ2
- 2022 ARQ1
- 2022 ARCH
- 2021 TRQ4
- 2021 TRQ3
- 2021 TRQ2
- 2021 TRQ1
- 2021 TRCH
- 2021 TD
- 2021 Tall Ships
- 2021 SYCQ4
- 2021 SYCQ3
- 2021 SYCQ2
- 2021 SYCQ1
- 2021 SYCCH
- 2021 SUPerSOLer
- 2021 SSANZ
- 2021 SPRQ4
- 2021 SPRQ3
- 2021 SPRQ2
- 2021 SPRQ1
- 2021 SPRCH
- 2021 Shetland
- 2021 PAC6
- 2021 OCQ4
- 2021 OCQ3
- 2021 OCQ2
- 2021 OCQ1
- 2021 OCCH
- 2021 ESRW
- 2020 TSE
- 2020 TSA
- 2020 TRQ4
- 2020 TRQ4
- 2020 TRQ3
- 2020 TRQ2
- 2020 TRQ1
- 2020 TRCH
- 2020 Tasman Double
- 2020 SYCQ4
- 2020 SYCQ3
- 2020 SYCQ2
- 2020 SYCQ1
- 2020 SYCCH
- 2020 SUPerSOLer
- 2020 SSANZ
- 2020 SRQ4
- 2020 SRQ3
- 2020 SRQ2
- 2020 SRQ1
- 2020 SPRCH
- 2020 Shetland
- 2020 RTW
- 2020 RNI
- 2020 Odyssey
- 2020 OCQ4
- 2020 OCQ3
- 2020 OCQ2
- 2020 OCQ1
- 2020 OCCH
- 2020 A3
- 2019 TRQ4
- 2019 TRQ3
- 2019 TRQ2
- 2019 TRQ1
- 2019 TRCH
- 2019 Tasman Double
- 2019 Tall Ships
- 2019 SYCQ4
- 2019 SYCQ3
- 2019 SYCQ2
- 2019 SYCQ1
- 2019 SYCCH
- 2019 SUPerSOLer
- 2019 SSANZ
- 2019 SRQ4
- 2019 SRQ3
- 2019 SRQ2
- 2019 SRQ1
- 2019 SPRCH
- 2019 Shetland
- 2019 Round New Zealand
- 2019 OCQ4
- 2019 OCQ3
- 2019 OCQ2
- 2019 OCQ1
- 2019 OCCH
- 2018 TRQ4
- 2018 TRQ3
- 2018 TRQ2
- 2018 TRQ1
- 2018 TRCH
- 2018 Tasman Double
- 2018 Tall Ships
- 2018 SUPSOL
- 2018 SSANZ Triple
- 2018 SRQ4
- 2018 SRQ3
- 2018 SRQ2
- 2018 SRQ1
- 2018 SPRCH
- 2018 Shetland
- 2018 Shackleton Challenge
- 2018 OCQ4
- 2018 OCQ3
- 2018 OCQ2
- 2018 OCQ1
- 2018 OCCH
- 2018 40CH
- 2017 TS RDV
- 2017 TRQ4
- 2017 TRQ3
- 2017 TRQ2
- 2017 TRQ1
- 2017 TRCH
- 2017 Tasman Double
- 2017 Tall Ships
- 2017 SWR
- 2017 SUPSOL
- 2017 SSANZ Triple
- 2017 SSANZ RNI
- 2017 SPRR3
- 2017 SPRR2
- 2017 SPRR1
- 2017 SPRCH
- 2017 Red Dot
- 2017 OCQ4
- 2017 OCQ3
- 2017 OCQ2
- 2017 OCQ1
- 2017 OCCH
- 2017 40CQ3&4
- 2017 40CQ1&2
- 2016 TRQ4
- 2016 TRQ3
- 2016 TRQ2
- 2016 TRQ1
- 2016 TRCH
- 2016 Tasman Double
- 2016 Tall Ships
- 2016 SUPSOL
- 2016 SSANZ Triple
- 2016 SRQ4
- 2016 SRQ3
- 2016 SRQ2
- 2016 SRQ1
- 2016 SPRCH
- 2016 RTWR
- 2016 OCQ4
- 2016 OCQ3
- 2016 OCQ2
- 2016 OCQ1
- 2016 OCCH
- 2016 Corporate Open Gold
- 2016 A3
- 2015 TRQ4
- 2015 TRQ3
- 2015 TRQ2
- 2015 TRQ1
- 2015 TRCH
- 2015 Tasman Double
- 2015 Tall Ships
- 2015 SYQ4
- 2015 SYQ3
- 2015 SYQ2
- 2015 SYQ1
- 2015 SYCCH
- 2015 SUPSOL
- 2015 SSANZ Triple
- 2015 SRQ4
- 2015 SRQ3
- 2015 SRQ2
- 2015 SRQ1
- 2015 SPRCH
- 2015 OCQ4
- 2015 OCQ3
- 2015 OCQ2
- 2015 OCQ1
- 2015 OCCH
- 2015 Aegean Rally
- 2014 Timed Races Championship
- 2014 Tasman Double
- 2014 Tall Ships
- 2014 SYC Championship
- 2014 SSANZ Trio
- 2014 SSANZ RNI
- 2014 Sprints Championship
- 2014 Scandinavian Tour
- 2014 Round The World Race
- 2014 Ocean Championship
- 2014-2015 Sailonline World Race
- 2013 Tall Ships
- 2013 SYC Championship
- 2013 SSANZ B&G Simrad
- 2013 Capt Anderson
- 2012 W Australia Regatta
- 2012 Tall Ships
- 2012 SSANZ B&G Simrad
- 2012 RNZ Two Handed
- 2012 Global Challenge
- 2012 Ecker Cup
- 2012 Black Sea
- 2012 A3
- 2011 Vancouver Island
- 2011 Tasman Double
- 2011 SSANZ B&G Simrad
- 2011 SOL Global Challenge
- 2011 SJORA Series
- 2011 Scandinavian Tour
- 2011 Round North Island
- 2011 Asian Sprints
- 2011-2012 SOL World Race
- 2010 Tasman Double
- 2010 Ouzo Rally
- 2010 Iberian Tour
- 2010 Auckland Regional
- 2009 French SOLo
- 2009 Bosphore - Bretagne
- 2008 SYCC
- 2008 -2013 SYC Week Race Championship
- 2008 -2013 SYC Week-End Race Championship
- 2008 -2013 SYC Ocean Race Championship
- 2008-2009 Sailonline Ocean Race
Mobile Client
SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!