Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Board » General Discussion » Mark rounding

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next

Posted by
SKOVSER


Users avatar

Posts
56
Registered at
2008-12-15 21:00:20
2011-07-16 22:11:54 - Re: Mark rounding
In my view, the manual is pretty clear. In chapter 1.5 it states: Marks must be rounded in the direction indicated by the arrows in the client.
Perhaps we could add something like ... "if the mark is placed on an Island, the Island have to be rounded".
Win also explain it very clear, when he says: the mark must be contained INSIDE the whole track.
And NOW - let's see some sportmanship in this fine Yacht Club please!

Happy sailing and good wind,
/Niels
Posted by
76Trombones


Users avatar

Posts
362
Registered at
2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-16 22:48:49 - Re: Mark rounding
I'm looking forward to the new rulebook :-) I hope we don't have to round every island that has a mark on it though! Writing rules isn't easy!

Please stop quoting only fragments of the discussion. Two or three lines later Kalle realised that the arrow argument wasn't enforceable. SOL could have manually unrounded the involved boats (and still could, for that matter), but it was found after analysis to not be defensible.

The server was wrong yes. Normally the server decides all disputes, but SOL checked to see if the manual could be used to resolve the issue.

The manual does not contain any rule that says the rounding is invalid. It does contain a "rule" that says that your rounding is valid if the server tells you it is.

Rules have to be taken at face value. The fact that we all know that they are wrong/incomplete means that we need to fix the rules. You can't rewrite the rules to fix the results of a race, here or IRL.

The pink line can't be used because it clearly shows a rounding approaching from the wrong side, against the arrows, which is spelled out. The diagram can't be used to show that an in-an-out rounding is not a "green" one because without anything to indicate otherwise, who's to say that the green line doesn't backtrack just outside the frame of the pic? Besides, there are other legal roundings that are not shown - are they invalid too?

The boat was considered "rounded" when it approached from the correct side, crossed a line at an outside angle midway between those of the adjacent legs and the server marked it as having rounded. What we are discussing is an instance of "unrounding", which the updated code used to catch perfectly, and will again soon.

Once the code is fixed, this won't be a problem again, but we still need a proper rulebook for just these sorts of situations. If we *had* had a rule that disqualified the rounding it would have been applied.
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-16 23:33:58 - Re: Mark rounding
I don't think having a SoL RULE book is of benefit when there is already the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing Book.

Why re-invent the wheel? Too Hard and will take too long to get developed and argued and corrected.

Most of SoL sailors go sailing IRL, but in all different sized boats from small dinghy's fun sailing, to all shapes and sizes of cruising and racing yachts, up to round the World Racing (I've done all as above) and possibly these days some SoL sailors are on superyachts 30m+ and America's Cups multis but I don't know for certain.

So we have all been exposed to the ISAF Rule book. Certainly some ISAF rules are not applicable to SoL, but some important ones are.

It is great that new SoL'ers e.g. PetrM are participating and doing well on SoL. Welcome I say to them. Now all we need to do is refer them to those ISAF Rules that ARE applicable in SoL.

The simplest being that if a string was laid over your wake, and then pulled tight, will it show you have rounded ALL the marks in the correct ORDER and on the CORRECT side. I know I posted comments about this a few years ago. See ISAF RRS 28.

76T's diagram is good.
GREEN is OK
BLUE only rounded on the second crossing but on the string test is OK.
PINK did NOT round correctly.

So we only need to add this diagram and comments to the Instructions Manual for all.

Arguements about tracks outside the jpg diagram are not applicable, but can be solved by adding a "previous" and "next" mark to 76T's diagram.

So Welcome to all new SoLers and thank you PetrM for acknowledging your lack of real life sailing, good luck for the future and may somebody locally take you out on their boat soon.

Simple solution as IRL PetrM is DSQ and that has happened at sometime in our lives to most, if not all of us!!.

Cheers

--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-17 02:40:33 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
Rod


Users avatar

Posts
392
Registered at
2010-06-24 22:30:48
2011-07-17 02:02:41 - Re: Mark rounding
I hope that all, who are participating in SOL, view it as an education in Sailing---I know that I do. I radio-sail rather than in full size boats---but I sail here to learn something about it all. I hope that others do so too, even if they do not sail, have never sailed. I hope that, if in the future, you find yourself in a sailboat, you will then know how to sail, upwind, downwind, across the wind. You will know what a 'start line' is , how to finish, how to round a buoy, even how to register for a race.
This is not an 'Arcade game', it is the experience of sailing---just that part that is the responsibility of the 'Navigator', but nevertheless, this, too, is part of sailing.
I hope and wish that SOL conforms with all of the spirit and the rules of sailing and racing---because, otherwise, why would we all bother???? We could just play "Pacman" instead......
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
Rod


Users avatar

Posts
392
Registered at
2010-06-24 22:30:48
2011-07-17 02:06:29 - Re: Mark rounding
Forgive the above 'rant'. I made my living as an educator----scratch me deep enough, and I spring up and start EDUCATING
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
76Trombones


Users avatar

Posts
362
Registered at
2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-17 02:22:16 - Re: Mark rounding
This has been a very good education in the application of racing rules and the need for unambiguous ones. The reason that the IRL rules work is a hundred years of this sort of discussion...

I very much like the idea of basing our wording on the ISAF rules, but we do need to maintain a separate document, even if that only references the relevant bits. We don't have boat-to-boat interaction, so I can only think of a few cases that need written rules. Starts, roundings, finishes and maybe the all-consuming boatsitting (and bot, eventually) issues need explicit rules that we can fall back on when the server fails us.
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-17 02:30:01 - Re: Mark rounding
I cannot forget Rod's rave !!!!

It is simple, good and I agree and interestingly is from a "non-sailor".

Sol is not an Arcade game. How right you are. See Home Page re SSANZ race which explains why I was sailing IRL and not entered in SoL. Such are the choices we make.

My only hope is that somebody where he lives, takes him sailing IRL ASAP.

Cheers Rod
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-17 02:37:15 - Re: Mark rounding
76T:
Perhaps we only need to add the RRS rules, preferably extracted in full for those unfortunates who do NOT keep a copy beside their PC's, Laptops, at work, in the car, beside their bed, in their sailing bag or even onboard.

That way, if the ISAF change a rule in their collective wisdom, we only need to alter our copy of the old rule.

This will fit in exactly with the SoL policy on the home page to "be as realistic as possible".

Perhaps the appropriate casebook decisions and interpretations should be available as well. That would help Rod in his "educating" mission in life.

Thanks for your supportive comments
Cheers


--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-17 02:39:37 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
KiaKaha


Users avatar

Posts
19
Registered at
2010-12-14 20:47:23
2011-07-17 08:36:14 - Re: Mark rounding
It was extremely evident that by the lack off congrats(none)to the winner that the rounding was wrong.
In order to leave the mark to starboard you would have to do a 360 around it, which obviously couldn't have been done.Saying that the server did not pick it up is no excuse to allow it. As computers have been overruled in sport before now, after viewing video evidence of an incident(in this ,viewing the track).Also ignorance is no excuse for doing the wrong thing.
After reading the chat Petrm should have done the right thing and gone back to the mark and rounding it properly or retired from the race, Which would have been the honourable thing to do!!!
There have been two Tall Ships races held and neither winner has really been valid.
ita_2011 won the first race.A race which did not meet the criteria that they self imposed upon themselves.
1. The race was not over 999 nml
2.The race was not an ocean race
3.The race was not part of a series
So I will stand by my decision and wont be taking part in any further races in SOL.

Haere ra

KiaKaha


--- Last Edited by KiaKaha at 2011-07-17 08:37:14 ---
Posted by
Schakel


Users avatar

Posts
183
Registered at
2008-12-19 09:19:00
2011-07-17 08:40:43 - Re: Mark rounding
In the scuderia's defense, the Tall Ships was initially planned as a series. It was decided only later that the series would be excluded from the rankings.

--
Cheers,
Philip

(I should add that by the time that decision was made, the first race was well underway. Motivation for the exclusion is found here: http://tinyurl.com/69czohj)

--- Last Edited by Schakel at 2011-07-17 08:46:11 ---

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

Round Hong Kong TIMED Race 2025

This month’s TIMED race takes us to the hectic, bustling sea lanes of the South China Sea for a 118 nm race beginning and ending in Hong Kong rounding several of the 260 nearby islands along the way. The boat for this race is the South African built Cape 31. This is a TIMEDrace so you may RE-REGISTER HEREto try again after finishing a run. You will have 13 days and 11 hours to test your skill and decision making after the race opens.
Race #1964
INFOby brainaid.de
Cape 31 Particulars
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
TRQ4 - TRCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
22 November at 23:00 UTC
Race starts: Nov 09th 12:00 Registration will open soon
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Red Eye - Frisian Isles Trophy 2025

For our final “Red Eye” race, we invite you to cross the Noord Zee to the Wadden Zee, where a 160nm course around a few sandy islands raced on SOL only once before in 2010 awaits you. We don’t have a replica of Erskine Childers’ Dulcibella in our boathouse, and in any case if we took her out, we might well contract more than one “Red Eye”, so instead we’ll race our very own riddle of the sands in Farr 400s!
Race #1848
INFOby brainaid.de
Farr 400 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - RED

RACE CLOSE: Tuesday,
November 11 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Nov 05th 12:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Fernando de Noronha to Faroe 2025

The RWW Series concludes with a spectacular journey from Fernando de Noronha to the Faroe Islands, a legendary destination in the wild North Atlantic. Panning 4,100 nautical miles, this leg will be a true test of endurance, strategy, and sheer determination. Also the penultimate leg of the 2025 Ocean Championship, it’s your chance to prove your mettle against the sea, the wind, and yourself. We’ll be racing aboard the Ragamuffin 100, a vessel built for speed and challenge — demanding planning, precision and grit from every sailor on deck. Do you have what it takes to master the Northern Atlantic?.
PRIZE: SMPF
Race #1960
INFO by brainaid.de
Ragamuffin 100 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RWW - OCQ4 - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Nov 03rd 11:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

ORCV Melbourne to Devonport Race 2025

Welcome to the legendary Rudder Cup, Australia’s oldest and most storied yacht race—sailed for over 110 years across the challenging Bass Strait from Melbourne to Tasmania. Organized by the Ocean Racing Club of Victoria, this 195nm classic tests sailors’ skill, strategy, and endurance against the unpredictable Southern Ocean. This year, our SOLers will be racing the timeless Swan 36, Nautor’s very first production yacht—a Sparkman & Stephens masterpiece renowned for her elegance, balance, and seaworthy performance. Get ready for a true ocean racing adventure!
Race #1951
INFO by brainaid.de
Swan 36 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
November 8 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Oct 31st 03:30 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Sinbad by Balloon 2025 - Carnarvon to Dondra


From here, our home in Bharatavarṣa is now north west of us – said Sinbad to his fellow balloonists. Perhaps we can ride the wind first further north, and then catch the winds that every year bring the rain, perhaps not. It’s 2600nm and we could be aloft awhile, so, Master el-Quarters, victuals only, no sandbags, provisioning the giant hamper. It will be not a picnic!
Race #1886
INFOby brainaid.de
SOL Balloon PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - SBB
Race starts: Oct 15th 11:00 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

  1. Sailonline Yacht Club Member KaSToR
  2. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CriticalHippo
  3. Sailonline Yacht Club Member WRmirekd
  4. Sailonline Yacht Club Member vida
  5. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rafa
  6. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CollegeFund
  7. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Panpyc
  8. Sailonline Yacht Club Member BRENTGRAY
  9. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Sax747
  10. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Kipper1258

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client