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Board » General Discussion » Mark rounding

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Posted by
SKOVSER


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2008-12-15 21:00:20
2011-07-16 22:11:54 - Re: Mark rounding
In my view, the manual is pretty clear. In chapter 1.5 it states: Marks must be rounded in the direction indicated by the arrows in the client.
Perhaps we could add something like ... "if the mark is placed on an Island, the Island have to be rounded".
Win also explain it very clear, when he says: the mark must be contained INSIDE the whole track.
And NOW - let's see some sportmanship in this fine Yacht Club please!

Happy sailing and good wind,
/Niels
Posted by
76Trombones


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2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-16 22:48:49 - Re: Mark rounding
I'm looking forward to the new rulebook :-) I hope we don't have to round every island that has a mark on it though! Writing rules isn't easy!

Please stop quoting only fragments of the discussion. Two or three lines later Kalle realised that the arrow argument wasn't enforceable. SOL could have manually unrounded the involved boats (and still could, for that matter), but it was found after analysis to not be defensible.

The server was wrong yes. Normally the server decides all disputes, but SOL checked to see if the manual could be used to resolve the issue.

The manual does not contain any rule that says the rounding is invalid. It does contain a "rule" that says that your rounding is valid if the server tells you it is.

Rules have to be taken at face value. The fact that we all know that they are wrong/incomplete means that we need to fix the rules. You can't rewrite the rules to fix the results of a race, here or IRL.

The pink line can't be used because it clearly shows a rounding approaching from the wrong side, against the arrows, which is spelled out. The diagram can't be used to show that an in-an-out rounding is not a "green" one because without anything to indicate otherwise, who's to say that the green line doesn't backtrack just outside the frame of the pic? Besides, there are other legal roundings that are not shown - are they invalid too?

The boat was considered "rounded" when it approached from the correct side, crossed a line at an outside angle midway between those of the adjacent legs and the server marked it as having rounded. What we are discussing is an instance of "unrounding", which the updated code used to catch perfectly, and will again soon.

Once the code is fixed, this won't be a problem again, but we still need a proper rulebook for just these sorts of situations. If we *had* had a rule that disqualified the rounding it would have been applied.
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-16 23:33:58 - Re: Mark rounding
I don't think having a SoL RULE book is of benefit when there is already the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing Book.

Why re-invent the wheel? Too Hard and will take too long to get developed and argued and corrected.

Most of SoL sailors go sailing IRL, but in all different sized boats from small dinghy's fun sailing, to all shapes and sizes of cruising and racing yachts, up to round the World Racing (I've done all as above) and possibly these days some SoL sailors are on superyachts 30m+ and America's Cups multis but I don't know for certain.

So we have all been exposed to the ISAF Rule book. Certainly some ISAF rules are not applicable to SoL, but some important ones are.

It is great that new SoL'ers e.g. PetrM are participating and doing well on SoL. Welcome I say to them. Now all we need to do is refer them to those ISAF Rules that ARE applicable in SoL.

The simplest being that if a string was laid over your wake, and then pulled tight, will it show you have rounded ALL the marks in the correct ORDER and on the CORRECT side. I know I posted comments about this a few years ago. See ISAF RRS 28.

76T's diagram is good.
GREEN is OK
BLUE only rounded on the second crossing but on the string test is OK.
PINK did NOT round correctly.

So we only need to add this diagram and comments to the Instructions Manual for all.

Arguements about tracks outside the jpg diagram are not applicable, but can be solved by adding a "previous" and "next" mark to 76T's diagram.

So Welcome to all new SoLers and thank you PetrM for acknowledging your lack of real life sailing, good luck for the future and may somebody locally take you out on their boat soon.

Simple solution as IRL PetrM is DSQ and that has happened at sometime in our lives to most, if not all of us!!.

Cheers

--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-17 02:40:33 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
Rod


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2010-06-24 22:30:48
2011-07-17 02:02:41 - Re: Mark rounding
I hope that all, who are participating in SOL, view it as an education in Sailing---I know that I do. I radio-sail rather than in full size boats---but I sail here to learn something about it all. I hope that others do so too, even if they do not sail, have never sailed. I hope that, if in the future, you find yourself in a sailboat, you will then know how to sail, upwind, downwind, across the wind. You will know what a 'start line' is , how to finish, how to round a buoy, even how to register for a race.
This is not an 'Arcade game', it is the experience of sailing---just that part that is the responsibility of the 'Navigator', but nevertheless, this, too, is part of sailing.
I hope and wish that SOL conforms with all of the spirit and the rules of sailing and racing---because, otherwise, why would we all bother???? We could just play "Pacman" instead......
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
Rod


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2010-06-24 22:30:48
2011-07-17 02:06:29 - Re: Mark rounding
Forgive the above 'rant'. I made my living as an educator----scratch me deep enough, and I spring up and start EDUCATING
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
76Trombones


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2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-17 02:22:16 - Re: Mark rounding
This has been a very good education in the application of racing rules and the need for unambiguous ones. The reason that the IRL rules work is a hundred years of this sort of discussion...

I very much like the idea of basing our wording on the ISAF rules, but we do need to maintain a separate document, even if that only references the relevant bits. We don't have boat-to-boat interaction, so I can only think of a few cases that need written rules. Starts, roundings, finishes and maybe the all-consuming boatsitting (and bot, eventually) issues need explicit rules that we can fall back on when the server fails us.
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-17 02:30:01 - Re: Mark rounding
I cannot forget Rod's rave !!!!

It is simple, good and I agree and interestingly is from a "non-sailor".

Sol is not an Arcade game. How right you are. See Home Page re SSANZ race which explains why I was sailing IRL and not entered in SoL. Such are the choices we make.

My only hope is that somebody where he lives, takes him sailing IRL ASAP.

Cheers Rod
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-17 02:37:15 - Re: Mark rounding
76T:
Perhaps we only need to add the RRS rules, preferably extracted in full for those unfortunates who do NOT keep a copy beside their PC's, Laptops, at work, in the car, beside their bed, in their sailing bag or even onboard.

That way, if the ISAF change a rule in their collective wisdom, we only need to alter our copy of the old rule.

This will fit in exactly with the SoL policy on the home page to "be as realistic as possible".

Perhaps the appropriate casebook decisions and interpretations should be available as well. That would help Rod in his "educating" mission in life.

Thanks for your supportive comments
Cheers


--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-17 02:39:37 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
KiaKaha


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2010-12-14 20:47:23
2011-07-17 08:36:14 - Re: Mark rounding
It was extremely evident that by the lack off congrats(none)to the winner that the rounding was wrong.
In order to leave the mark to starboard you would have to do a 360 around it, which obviously couldn't have been done.Saying that the server did not pick it up is no excuse to allow it. As computers have been overruled in sport before now, after viewing video evidence of an incident(in this ,viewing the track).Also ignorance is no excuse for doing the wrong thing.
After reading the chat Petrm should have done the right thing and gone back to the mark and rounding it properly or retired from the race, Which would have been the honourable thing to do!!!
There have been two Tall Ships races held and neither winner has really been valid.
ita_2011 won the first race.A race which did not meet the criteria that they self imposed upon themselves.
1. The race was not over 999 nml
2.The race was not an ocean race
3.The race was not part of a series
So I will stand by my decision and wont be taking part in any further races in SOL.

Haere ra

KiaKaha


--- Last Edited by KiaKaha at 2011-07-17 08:37:14 ---
Posted by
Schakel


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2008-12-19 09:19:00
2011-07-17 08:40:43 - Re: Mark rounding
In the scuderia's defense, the Tall Ships was initially planned as a series. It was decided only later that the series would be excluded from the rankings.

--
Cheers,
Philip

(I should add that by the time that decision was made, the first race was well underway. Motivation for the exclusion is found here: http://tinyurl.com/69czohj)

--- Last Edited by Schakel at 2011-07-17 08:46:11 ---

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