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Board » General Discussion » Mark rounding

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Posted by
Tijn


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2011-06-16 13:34:21
2011-07-17 09:16:24 - Re: Mark rounding
I know that you implemented the rounding algorithm before, but I have been thinking about it and want to share my thoughts on this.
Since you've implemented the rounding itself quite well, I'll take that for granted. To ensure proper rounding I would suggest the following algorithm:
1) The rounding value starts at zero.
2) Correct rounding increases the value by one
3) Reverse rounding decreases the value by one
4) Maximum value is 1
5) Mark is rounded when and only when value is 1

Especially number 4 is very important to prevent invalid roundings.

I checked it with various scenarios and it seems to work for all of them.

Implementation should be fairly easy I think


** Tijn **
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2011-07-17 12:47:48 - Re: Mark rounding
First about 76T's quoting of the SOL manual...
Well actually it was mostly meant to be an update of the new features in SOL - published in time incase we got some new SOLers from the Tall Ships. That pic was taken from the previous version, and I didnt really take much notice of it (ie the backtrack could never be legal as it comes from the wrong side)...

Secondly, the manual is NOT meant to be a rule book, but a (basic) guideline to using the SOL interface.

IMHO - It has been made abundantly clear from previous forum posts, and the very fact that code was introduced to prevent such 'unrounding' that such a rounding is NOT acceptable. Sure - there is an issue at the moment with that code - but the intention still stands.
It seems (i was not in the chat at the time) that it was made very clear the rounding was not legal - and merely stating 'But the client says I am ok' is, well, pathetic...
Someone in the overall top 10 of SOL knows exactly how a mark should be rounded, and was clearly trying to exploit a loophole that was believed (correctly) to still be in the server code.
Not going back and rounding correctly was poor sportsmanship - and I am sure this will be reflected in how the SOLer in question is regarded in the future...
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2011-07-17 12:53:32 - Re: Mark rounding
Actually - easy fix for this...
Make the NOR linked to on brainaid;s site a REAL NOR...

In the course listing it says 'Leave to Starboard/Port' - which is clearly impossible to do if you unwind your rounding...

??
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
76Trombones


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2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-17 15:15:47 - Re: Mark rounding
Yes absolutely. The manual is a manual.

In the absence of written rules, the text and the diagram were being used by others both here and in chat as evidence in what amounts to protest hearing. The arguments presented based on reading of the manual do not show that any rule was broken. It's important that procedure is followed. If the current "rules"/code/course-design produced a result that was unsatisfactory, the correct response is to ensure that *next* time it won't

It has already been stated (in chat at least) that we will go back to setting additonal course-forcing marks until the new code is up and tested.

The code fix is being worked on.

So that leaves the rules. Really, so long as the server is working properly, the rule ends up being "what the server says goes", putting us right back here if it doesn't. If we really don't want to rely on the server, we need rules that cover everything that the server does, as we can no longer say "all rules are automatically enforced". There is a short list of possible points of contention: NOR/SI, navigable water, jumping, roundings, finishes, timing and changes to course?

I'll kick things off with assistance from PaulR and ISAF:

XX SAILING THE COURSE
XX.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the side indicated in the race client by the red course-line in the correct order, and finish, so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when drawn taut

(a) pass each mark on the required side,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and

She may correct any errors to comply with this rule.

XX.2 A boat may leave on either side a mark that does not begin, bound or end the leg she is on.

XX.3 A boat finishes when her calculated position crosses the finishing line in any direction.



Sorry to be a stickler, and I know that it's unpopular result. Nothing that has been argued so far holds up - if boats currently racing can present a valid case so much the better. So far I don't see any case against the involved boats, but it's also not my job to look (assuming I'm hearing the protest, and besides I have no boat in this race).
Posted by
76Trombones


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2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-17 15:20:30 - Re: Mark rounding
AGage said @ 2011-07-17 12:53:32:
In the course listing it says 'Leave to Starboard/Port' - which is clearly impossible to do if you unwind your rounding...
If I sail around a mark twice clockwise and then once anti-clockwise what direction do I leave the mark on? We all know "what is meant by" leave to port, but PaulR has it perfectly correct - the IRL rules have evolved to eliminate all ambiguity. The casebook makes for great bedtime reading :-)
Posted by
A2


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2009-10-26 00:39:42
2011-07-17 16:07:42 - Re: Mark rounding
* This field is required. *

--- Last Edited by A2R at 2012-02-10 07:12:59 ---
None so blind
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-18 04:10:29 - Re: Mark rounding
76Trombones said @ 2011-07-17 15:20:30:
. . . PaulR has it perfectly correct - the IRL rules have evolved to eliminate all ambiguity. The casebook makes for great bedtime reading :-)
Thanks 76T.

If this was a Formula 1, NASCar or World Car Rally event, instead of sailing, then the F1 rules, road code for that country would apply, and be part of the car racing game.

Whether one drives on the right, or on the left, I am pleased to say that down under , we drive on the topside of the road; but is that not the bottom side of your road??

Joking aside, the evolution of the IRL Racing Rules will save us a lot of time.

My only suggestion 76T, is that when we number our rules, we put in brackets a reference to the ISAF RRS Rules.

So your No 1 rule as above may need to be renumbered because the IRL RRS Rules 2, 3 & 4 should also apply.

Is Rule 5 applicable? Should we test? Or can anyone race regardless of their abbilities. What happens if you fail?

So your first rule above should include "(RRS 28)".

This will save us all a lot of future problems if we stick to the ISAF numbering system as well.

So rule 5 may show:
5. (RRS 5) NOT applicable to SoL.
. . . etc.

Cheers




--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-18 04:25:26 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-18 04:22:35 - Re: Mark rounding
8mr Who: I do agree with your tidal situation but I think this was dropped several years ago as being impractical, because of server loads, local knowledge, lack of information available (copyrights?) for all SoLers around the world.
It could however be re-visited.

Alternatively the ISAF Right of Way Rules 10, 11, 12, 13.
It could be interesting if a penalty of say 3% or 4% performance drop could happen if a vessel comes within a certain distance of another. E.G. if when one zooms in to say less than 1nm on the zoom scale, a red "danger circle" of "x" boat lengths or 0.25nm appears around each boat. Then if a port tack boat fails to avoid or dip a starboard boat, the port tacked boat gets a penalty, and so goes slower for a time until back to 100%.

Equally zooming in and steering you port tacked boat to avoid others on starboard, would mean you can avoid such a penalty.

When on starboard, you can sleep!! just as IRL!!

It may need some time or distance limit before this happens after a start; say after 10% of the race has been covered which would often allow boats to spread out a bit.

Cheers

--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-18 04:27:17 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-18 04:29:36 - Re: Mark rounding
Thinking a bit further, instead of circles, we could have the Red & Green sectors showing.

That way the International Collision Avoidence Regulations can apply at night and the RRS during the day.

Realistic or knot??
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
mustang_sally


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2011-04-23 14:01:51
2011-07-18 05:06:43 - Re: Mark rounding
I Think it is hard enough for the sailors at the moment that have to work or go to school and cant access a PC for hours in the day.
The races of late and in the near future only let you do well if you are around 24hrs a day!!! And still no race that can be started and finished in the weekend!
Now you are talking about putting in port/stb rules to make it harder for them!!
not the best way to recruit or keep members!!

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