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Board » General Discussion » Stealth Mode

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Posted by
ita10267


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2008-12-29 10:33:09
2012-01-05 13:38:07 - Re: Stealth Mode
I'll try to make it clearer. In order to make it even (is it possible?) more similar to IRL sailing:

1) Line of sight vision in real time (i know it could be an overload if done at server side and circumvented if done at client side)

2) out-of-sight boats updates at fixed time of the day (i.e. at wx updates)

If server side overload of Point 1 is too high, point 1-2 can collapse into

1-2) Fleet update at wx update only for Ocean Races (dead reckoning in between just to maintain a pseudo-real-time position?)

3) Personal stealth mode: a limited time (max 12h per race) period where, on demand from client to server, a boat can be removed from the fleet position updates as seen to the other competitors. Only for ocean races.

Everybody knows that IRL following (even in OneDesign) is not that simple because usually the best boats are also the best equipped, trimmed and tuned so, after less than an hour, following results in granted disaster. In SOL this is possible because we are really sailing OD and our boats are steered and trimmed to perfection :D

My biggest concern is that the next step if we don't find some countermeasures, will be "follow-the-leader" (i.e. follow 76T) BOTs in order to save some sleep without the risk loosing contact with the top :( Is it fun? Not so much. Will we find someone doing it? I bet and even if it is only one, he/her will celebrate in the chat and will be very annoying!
Posted by
Rod


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2010-06-24 22:30:48
2012-01-05 14:24:49 - Re: Stealth Mode
I "sail" here, and on other sites, purely as a mental exercise, (having just passed my 78th), and have no wish to "follow" even my fellow 'Canuck'.
There is, however, a point that has not been mentioned yet. If many of our fellow sailors get the feeling that they have no chance of winning except by "following", then their enthusiasm for participating in this thing will be greatly decreased, and we will see only a small number continuing to "play".
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
76Trombones


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2012-01-05 16:55:29 - Re: Stealth Mode
Just a quick note to ensure that too many boats are not tarred with the same brush:

I spent an inordinate amount of energy last race maintaining position vs the fleet instead of sailing (what might be) the fastest course. Sometimes racing is like trying to pass that guy on the sidewalk that keeps wandering back and forth...
Posted by
ita10267


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2012-01-05 18:04:32 - Re: Stealth Mode
As it should be.......
Posted by
zero


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2010-02-07 16:56:30
2012-01-05 20:21:01 - Re: Stealth Mode
Here is another take on this interesting topic:

During the last HOB-SYD race I was the first boat to pass point Raoul and I was leading until we reached the Bass Strait. After a few hours into the Strait I was sailing at TWA 44, close to VMG. My thinking was to clear the tip of Australia without having to tack.

Them I noticed that Winston and the other VIP sailors were bearing away to about TWA 47 or probably 50.
At first I didn’t understand the reason behind that move, BUT, given the fact they are the best sailors around I eased the sheets and sailed at 47 TWA. By then it was too late and I had already lost my lead.

Although I didn’t see the reason early on, I have enough knowledge of sailing tactics to understand what they were doing differently, it became clear that they were sailing on some sort of VMC and were passing me (!) so I changed plans before loosing more places.

I can tell you that if they were in stealth mode I would have kept going higher into the wind sailing VMG and would have lost a lot more place than the 8 places I did loose.

Is this following?
Am I guilt of following?

To me this was a learning experience and that is and should be one of the many strengths of SOL.

Antonio
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2012-01-05 23:59:53 - Re: Stealth Mode
Very interesting comments and all valid points. However I see other areas need SoL's development BEFORE stealth happens.

1). BOATS LOG BOOK.
I would love to have a log book function that records all the numerical data on the bottom of the screen, recorded with position (Lat, Long, Place)say every hour, as IRL.
Also record data when one changes course 5 degrees or more or over a 5 minute period to reduce server load.

Further for me, the time I go aground when I am asleep at the helm and the times eventually I wake up again. Further as an encouragement for ALL those in position 50+ and new sailors etc, what my position would of been had I NOT fallen asleep and gone aground . . . yet again.

I would of finished in position 85th but because of groundings, I am my usual 157th!! LOL!!

This would only need to be available "on demand" as and when I want to look at it, again to save server loads.

Ideally graphical data could be more useful to new sailors and save a lot of excel graphing for others.

I see this as another "LINK" within the Leaderboard & Manuals etc Tab.

2. STEERING PRECISION.
SoL is so VERY fortunate that I can sail WITHIN 1/100th of a compass degree.
IRL WHAT RUBBISH!!

Down wind I am quite accurate in my steering to within 2 or 3 degrees.
Reaching my accuracy is not so good, but on the wind my steering within 5 to 10 degrees depending upon sea state is often the best I can manage. About the same as a lot of autopilots and wind vanes IRL with waves and stronger winds.

The one constant in yacht racing is that the "WIND IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING".

I suggest removing the "stupid" decimals of compass courses, and possibly introducing some randomness to reflect the IRL steering situation, more randomness when close hauled and yet more again in stronger winds.

3. WIND SHADOWS.
In SoL, we race around flat coral treeless island with minimal wind disruption and the same happens at Cape Horn, Norway, Alaska and currently when going around Iceland. Honest!!

Mountains have NO valleys and do NOT block or funnel the winds.

Some ranmdomness here could be a solution. Sail in close and get becalmed or blasts as opposed to staying offshore, sailing a slightly longer course, for a more constant breeze should be choices with gains and losses as IRL.

Summary: Sorry to Thread Drift, but STEALTH should not be the #1 priority. SoL's stated aims for "as real as possible" to me is more important, IMHO.
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
ShamrockPirate


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2010-12-03 17:49:57
2012-01-06 01:07:22 - Re: Stealth Mode
A very interesting thread and another prime example of how the SOL community embraces and discusses an issue.

As I see it, the fundamental issue is the Follow-the-Leader behavior. I would offer possible(but improbable) alternative suggestions to "stealth" idea though it would certainly play havoc with the all-important rankings-- or perhaps those smarter than me would have add-on ideas/solutions.
Since the basic idea is not to follow the VIPs, as they have been designated, don't have them in a position to always lead.

Performance Starts:
Have 3 different start times for a single race. The Top10 (or 20 or 25 or 50, whatever) start +2hrs. The next bracket (50-100), start +1hr, all others start at designated time.
Example: Start time for >SYC100 rank or non-member @ 1200UTC // SYC25-100 start 1300UTC // SYC 1-25 start 1400UTC.
(No idea how to handicap this for results)

Random Starts:
Instead of assigning start time by performance, make it random by login time with three divisions (same start time delays as above).
Server knows what number you are when you log on to race (I think) Login #1,4,7,10, etc are in Division I, #2,5,8,11, etc are in Division II, #3,6,9,12,etc are in Division III.
(No idea how to handicap this for results)

These ideas would not completely solve the FTL behavior as it would likely occur within the divisions, but since the winds would be different for any given race with differing start times, there would be no point in following the boats ahead as they have a different wind/position throughout a given race.

NoName Race:
Assign a boat number on login instead of the name. We all know the top-tier SOLers, so make a race with the boat name masked. I know this would then become obvious who is who in chat but just an idea. Many races are won/lost in the early decision-making so this is a way to "hide" where the pros are going early on. Don't know if the chat identity can be masked.

I would also resurrect my long-held desire for racing Divisions or multi-polar races with handicapping as per previous Forum threads, but that is a side-topic, though I can see where it is similar to the Performance Start suggestion above.

Great discussion!

SP




Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2012-01-06 02:11:42 - Re: Stealth Mode
MULTI CHOICE COURSES.
Most of the SoL courses have sensible courses and often follow the IRL races. Great and do NOT change e.g. Sydney - Hobart.

As an addition to the occasional "timed" race, what about a race around Iceland going in EITHER direction. At least 30% of the fleet will "follow the OTHER leader".

Perhaps a course to weave between 3, 4 or 5 islands. A 5 island course could have rules that "one sails passing with at least two Islands on the "port" side and at least two Islands on the Starboard side.

There could be "gates" between the islands but we should try both with and without gates before any final decision or just keep alternatives open.

The comparision for this is the old Admirals' Cup or Solent UK racing where upon rounding a mark, there is a choice of which side one sails on to the next mark. Often the first boat(s) went one way and the next boat(s) went to the opposite shore. This is often current/tidal based decisions and SoL does not have Tides and Currents, but courses with choices about which way should be possible.

Perhaps even figure "8" courses around a series of islands as long as your tracks cross and all islands are passed on both sides. So should one tack between islands, alternate sides, pass several islands on a straight run or do s zigzag course first and then the last leg home as a straight run, passing through previous tracks that made loops, rather like sewing zigzag by hand.

Choices yes but follow which leader???

--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2012-01-06 02:12:42 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2012-01-06 02:25:33 - Re: Stealth Mode
Shamrock. I agree with divisions and have suggested "Using / Not Using" planning software as two divisions. Based upon entry choice and/or a declaration at finish.

I agree with Zero/Antonio that SoL is a great learning experience, and excellent chance to practice with planning software.

I agree one can only cheat oneself some of the time, as stated above with the rest being "lies, dammed lies or statistics".

Perhaps putting the "Top 100" boats in another division from the "Others" with the bottom 10 from the "Top 100" relegated to the "Others" wilst the first 10 are promoted from the "Others" up to the "Top 100" division.

Then separate prizes for both divisions. Otherwise just a few will get the prizes. Perhaps one can win a specific prize ONCE only. This way prizes will trickle down to encourage others.

I believe even the top sailors only drink from one coffee mug or wear ONE SoL Cap at a time anyway!!LOL!!
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2012-01-06 05:25:02 - Re: Stealth Mode
There are a few posts to reposnd/reply to here:

Jawz, your comment re the effort: I would say alot less effort than 76T put in... Especially as they shared in amongst the 3 of them alot of the time.

Ita: LOL - I just wrote in an email almost exactly what you said in your last 2 paragrahs! ;)
Nice idea about 'self-stealth'

Zero: The topic here is VERY different from what you did.

PaulR: Nice thread hijack... Actually your point about wind is not quite right... Take a closer look at the map - land effects are included in the models.
Re Log Book - are you prepared to do some data entry yourself, or do you want it all automatic?

SP: Awesome idea about hiding boat names - it can all be done in the client and we can still put names to chat and NOT the boats...
(Boats are already assigned an 'ID' when registered)
Different staring time just wont work though... I started just 19 minutes late in the Hobart to Sydney, and ok I probably could have managed 15th or slightly better, but I decided to 'take a flyer' - anyway - about 4 hours into the race, I was over 30 minutes behind. @6hr, almost 40 minutes behind. See my point? (although there were times I also gained)




--- Last Edited by Aaron Gage at 2012-01-06 05:27:56 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__

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