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Board » General Discussion » Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??

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Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-04-05 03:27:45 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
Most boats especially IRL need ONE and only one skipper.

Whilst the skipper may invite assistance from crew in decision making, the ultimate responsibility remains the skipper's alone.

Many boats with co-skippers do not always succed, and if we look at the around the world races, boats packed with experts often failed to achieve the highest expectations, indeed some crew departed (deserted?) at the next port.

Jumping into steer another boat could really destroy one's original plans to move away from a simple course to try and achieve better winds in the future.

Getting somebody aground going again, rescuing, is a totally different thing.

Another view is that trying to race 20 boats on your own, requires an amazing amount of time, just logging in and checking courses etc. It also requires 20 different plans . . . and eventually one realises that most times there are only three or four options, and . . . eventually you come back to sailing only 3 or 4 boats, with the others being "also rans", just completing the course.


--- Last Edited by Paul Rosser at 2011-04-05 03:28:19 ---

--- Last Edited by Paul Rosser at 2011-04-05 03:29:15 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_undercover


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2011-04-05 03:53:40 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
I totally agree Paul about wrecking someones plan...........when I assisted Exmeromotu I definitely checked that he had no DC's set otherwise I could be undoing his master plan to sail around us all. :)
Posted by
Albycore


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2011-02-27 17:34:48
2011-04-05 05:41:14 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
Hi SOL'rs;
My first introduction to this game was a 1 1/2 day late start in the Bimini Beach run. Worked my way past 40 to 60 boats for various reasons. Oh wow what have I found here. Oh my, SOL is the neatest thing I think I have ever found on the net (IMHO). There were boats going just about every direction, up on the beach, against the wind, backwards, odd tacks, what the? I was instantly a SOL ahololic. IRL I'm a commercial fisherman with some pretty fair navigating skills.
The second race I think I entered was the Leg 4 round North Island? I specificly remember a boat doing a 180 loop, someone jumped aboard set it astraight. This is so cool, you can have friends that will fix you up if need be and/or so choose! Then peeking around in the forums I findout I'm competeing against teams with way better sailing skills and knowledge then I!!!
I'll show them, oh this is gonna be so fun and educational. I keep hearing talk about teams, software, friends helping friends, SOTP's (still needing very clear & specific defination on this one), people from around the world with various skills ,knowledge , experience, tools, & commoradory (sp)? from all walks of life. Not only are we all competeing against all this, we're having a blast doing it and hopefully doing by personal choice.
About half way through Leg 5 of SOL's Global Challenge, I findout how I can use the chart plotter I have owned for a few years! How cool is that? This will a add a new dimension to SOL for me and help me hone my navigating skills (which will hopefully allow me better placing). Mentioning this in chat brought up a conversion. Some feel no extra software should be used. I almost left SOL because I felt I had broken a rule and should be banned (noone mentioned this it was just a personal feeling).
I really really like SOL (almost love;))) SOL! Should SOL'rs have to abide by maritime law which requires a helmsman "at all times" when underway? I believe this to be impractical. Though everyone would loose cause I'd be passing all these drifting boats! Leg 6 I didn't have the time and beached twice:( I choose to run solo, there's just not enough room on this little boat for 2 captains). In this upcoming run for the rum I love the thought of running against the routers, the teams, the non-routers
the SOTP'rs, the friendship boats, the highly skilled, the highly experienced, and the total newbie who may come here knowing nothing, welcome to SOL it's gonna be fun! I do like Paul's idea, and with some of the knowledgeable people around here I wonder if a simple spreadsheet could be made where everyones finish and "class" after the race is then posted in the forum I.D.K. maybe not? In this way you can choose to declare (or choose not to declare) go ahead run in stealth mode class.
I'm SOLO run pretty much SOTP I think?, pretty new to SOL, never sailed IRL though I want too REAL bad! I use the chart plotter some 10% maybe, though the SOL client has everything a navigator really needs so I really only get it fired up if I'm gonna be on a long time and feel like it. I also have the butterfly but then again the SOL client polar stares me in the face the whole time so it (the butterfly) doesn't get fired up much either.
I own universal plotting sheets, dividers, compass, course protractor, a scientific calc., a book about sailing, and don't use any of that either.
I'd do better if I did but wonder if using these tools and knowledge of their use could be cheating or unfair? Once again I believe this to impractical. I just don't use them by choice. I will recommend to anybody wanting to win though that education about the weather, navigation, and sailing is the key. I.D.K just my thoughts on this whole thing but I'd hate to think more rules are needed or tools of the trade and/or knowledge of their use become "illegal". I say run what you brung, declare if you wish, and become the best SOLr out there "I love the challenge" Thanks SOL!!! Wish you all fair winds,just save the rum for me.
Posted by
AGage


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2011-04-05 05:54:17 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
Rod said @ 2011-04-04 16:41:10:
P.S. It is a well recognized technique in philosophical argument to postulate an extreme position---it is called "Argumentum ad absurdum". It does wonders in clarifying muddy arguments.
Actually Rod, this isn't quite correct. 'Argumentum ad Absurdum', is when you carry out an argument that leads to a contradiction or absurd/illogical result, therefore showing the original premise to be illogical or absurd - evolving from the phrase 'Reductio ad Absurdum' ;-)
What you are referring to is "Argumentum ad Extremus'
Edit: spelling corrections.

--- Last Edited by Aaron Gage at 2011-04-05 06:40:12 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
AGage


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2011-04-05 06:03:47 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
76Trombones said @ 2011-04-05 02:44:08:
Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis
LMAO
nice work sir ;-)
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
AGage


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2011-04-05 06:37:39 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
@Albycore: SOTP = Seat Of the Pants, ie no routing software - think of the old time "Flying by the seat of your pants" - no nav instruments... ;-) evolved here on SOl from that I think.

But again, the 2 rules:
"One boat per person" and "More than 1 person per boat is allowed", almost seem at odds and i cannot for the life of me see how 1 person entering 2 or more boats is an advantage (quite the opposite in fact) other than possibly when faced with a divisive route decision you can take both (or all 3 whatever depending on how many boats you have). If you are racing, AND boatsit, then clearly 1 person has control of 2 boats! It may only be for a small section of the course, but it IS explicity disallowed by the rules. Ergo, "More than 1 person allowed per boat", "Only 1 boat per person" and "Boat-sitting is allowed" are contracdictory, until 'boat-sitting' is given a formal definition - which it should be, and will save much confusion or hard feelings.

@UC: yes this time you announced in chat you had altered Exmer's course, but it has been mentioned a few times so far that this has been going on for a while 'behind closed doors', so this is not the first instance, just the first that everyone knows about.
Also checking he had no DCs set does not at all guarantee he was not intending to sail where he was. Sometimes it is obvious the boat is off track (ie heading completely wrong direction), but consider my divergence from the fleet in Leg 5 (and assume dunbur was not there so it was just me). I sailed 500+Nm away from the rest of the fleet, which by most definitions is "off track", yet it was entirely deliberate.

As I asked before, I would really like to hear from those who wrote the boat-sitting rule explain how they originally envisioned the rule being used. WHY was it included?
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
Schakel


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2011-04-05 06:57:07 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
AGage said @ 2011-04-05 06:37:39:
As I asked before, I would really like to hear from those who wrote the boat-sitting rule explain how they originally envisioned the rule being used. WHY was it included?
Because it cannot be prevented. Theoretically, you could only limit access to any one boat thru IP control, ie. one IP address has access to a boat. But that would block anyone without a fixed IP address, mobile connections, access from work, etc. And still boat sitting would be possible, from the same computer.

Funny thing is, most people don't even get it. The talk about what the rules allow, about helping friends in "danger" (psah, as if sol boats could spring a leak). It's not even about that. It's about getting a fair shot. Otherwise, your "boat" just a stupid blip on a screen going nowhere.

Sadly, that ship has sailed here.

See ya on the other side.
Posted by
NZL_undercover


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2011-04-05 08:05:54 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
@ Schakel:

I have just read your blog.
You have miss quoted me. I said

"Maybe in the future we will do this behind closed doors if that makes people feel happier..........ignorance is bliss."

Nothing about:

The “we’ll do it secretly, ignorance is bliss” remark made in the forum made sure of that.

The "Maybe" is reasonably import in that statement.

What I was trying to point out was that I did do it openly thinking that what I was doing was ok......

In the open in the chat for all to see

--- Last Edited by NZL_undercover at 2011-04-05 08:08:10 ---
Posted by
Schakel


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2011-04-05 09:01:27 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
Sorry about that, I have corrected it.

Actually, I sort of did it on purpose to kind of not let it get back to you directly but rather to emphasize the point I was making that even if a gentlemen's agreement about the practice of boatsitting, or anything else for that matter, could be made, provided people would want to, there'd always be suspicions, partly due to that particular post.

Again sorry, it was not intended as demeaning to your character.

Philip

--- Last Edited by Schakel at 2011-04-05 09:11:03 ---
Posted by
AGage


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2011-04-05 09:14:36 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
@Phillip:
I know that to limit 1 IP per boat is just not practical, nor can any level of cooperation be prevented, my point was/is "In what spirit was boatsitting intended by those who wrote the rule?"

1) To (potentially) allow anyone with your password to login at any time and change your route...
2) To allow agreements be made between SOLers, for those occasions where they cannot control their own boat themselves...
3) We cant stop it so lets make it explicitly allowed....

????

I also ask this, as this rule "Boatsitting is allowed" is being used to justify other rules which are being broken. Clarification is needed...

--- Last Edited by Aaron Gage at 2011-04-05 09:20:17 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__

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